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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Hi all,

I'm starting this thread to begin documenting my next 351C engine build and in the process, asking for guidance, recommendations, and experience. My name is Asa Jay Laughton (pronounced Ace-uh, Jay, Lawton), I live in the Spokane, Washington area (that's the East side of Washington next to Idaho, not the "other" Washington.) :)

I have an A.A.S in Automotive Technology (mostly unused as I went into a different profession). I rebuilt a 351C as my class project in Engines during colledge. That engine went into a 1973 Mustang fastback and a couple years later was transplanted into a 1971 Mach I. It ran for many years, from about 1985 until 1999 and was an everyday driver through about 1993.

In about 2001, I rebuilt a new engine for the Mach I with a lot more bragging rights. It featured a roller cam with the Crane roller conversion kit, a Crane stud-mount rocker conversion kit, full roller rockers, 4V quench heads, Pete Jackson quiet timing gear set, MPG windage tray and a few other goodies. You can see details about that build here:
http://www.asajay.com/351rebuild/351rebuild.htm

Later, in about 2012, I pulled that engine from the Mach I, refreshed it and re-installed it in my 1973 DeTomaso Pantera for racing in the Silver State Classic Challenge (SSCC). You can see more about that here:
http://teampanteraracing.com/index.php? ... temId=5096

I sold the Pantera in 2015 to another avid race driver who has since taken it to the next level.

This left me with the 1971 Mach I Mustang… without an engine.

I've collected a few complete engines over the past several years and I'm now involved in trying to get the Mach I back on the road to do more Silver State Classic Challenge open road races. You can see more about that project here:
https://www.facebook.com/asajaysracingforautism

I'm a founding member of the DeTomaso email forum and know many in the Pantera world, including Mark Skwarek, Hugh Casey (rest in peace), Mike and Lori Drew, Gerry Romack, Dennis (Mad Dog) Antenucci and many, many others, some who have had their engine specs published on this and/or other forums. I see Mark and Dennis at SSCC regularly and Gerry came out last year with his new engine from Dave McLain. I had the privilege of sitting at the same table as Dan Jones at a POCA Fun Rally many years ago and have followed his 351C dyno project off-and-on since about the beginning. I'm of the belief that Dan has more knowledge in his little finger than I have in my whole body.


With all that in mind…
I need to build a new 351C engine and I'm soliciting pointers.

Overall Goals:
    140 MPH minimum top-end during open road racing in a 1971 Mach I Mustang
    Smooth -enough- idle to drive on the street to shows, out to dinner, etc. (a bit of rumpity-rump is okay, stalling isn't)
    Fits under the stock RamAir hood of a 1971 Mach I
    Can take advantage of the RamAir Intake system (minor mods to RamAir okay but no holes in the hood)

Details about other (non-engine) components:
    Will be mated to a C6 auto transmission (yes, I understand a four-speed or other Auto-trans may be better, but I'm using a C6 to start with)
    Specs on the parts used in the C6:
    Ford Motorsport M-7398-C Wide Ratio Gear set,
    Ford Motorsport M-7044-A Heavy Duty Clutch
    Ford Motorsport M-7027-A famous "R" intermediate servo assembly,
    Ford Motorsport M-1794-C6 tranny pan with integrated drain
    Transgo Shift Kit
    Built to Police Interceptor specs
    Locally custom-rebuilt torque converter with approximate 1,800 stall speed
    Stock Ford 9" rear end with 3:00 gearset (I have a 2:99 available somewhere)


Engine goals:
    I'm not "set" on this list of desired items for my build, it's just a starting point and I'm flexible
    Minimum bore as possible (current block appears to be less than 0.005 wear but will need professional assessment)
    I'd like to build a Stroker this time around
    Solid roller cam (I may be willing to go hydraulic roller again)
    Cam specs TBD
    Full roller rockers
    Aluminum heads (leaning toward TrickFlow 195 or 225)
    I have a set of stock cast iron 4V quench heads (bare) that I could use
    Armando T-pan for open road racing
    MPG windage tray
    Stock volume/pressure oil pump
    Canton 2-quart oil accumulator
    ACL main and rod bearings
    Gear-drive timing set
    Hooker Super-Competition 4V headers (this may need to change)

I'm looking at the specs used between the builds done for Mark Skwarek and Hugh Casey in these to forum postings:
From <http://www.the351cforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=577>
From <http://www.the351cforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=569>


Those were impressive builds and I want to do something very similar. I've seen Mark's engine in action. There is enough documented there to get me started. What I -don't- readily know is where to get some of the parts or specs necessary.
    Where do I go for a good stroker kit and what's in it, or do I source the parts separately?
    Where do I get the best pistons?
    What's the best cam profile to use for my use case?
    What's the best intake that will fit under the hood?

I also have to select a local machine shop to do all the block work. The last time I did this I had a friend who worked at a place but he's moved on so I have to find a new vendor. I'll of course need to find one familiar with the 351C so they don't screw it up.

I really want to build this on my own (well, sans the machining part). But, if it comes down to it, I'm not against sending it to Dave McLain because he comes so highly spoken of by many people.

There we have it. I need to build this by September 2019 for that year's Silver State Classic Challenge. Any and all ideas, pointers, recommendations and cautions are welcome.

Thank you,
Asa Jay

-- this information may be found posted to more than one forum and/or email list --

_________________
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
1971 Mach I - 1F05M118xxx
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
https://www.facebook.com/asajaysracingforautism


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Thanks for posting....

Have you looked through the build threads here? I have a ton of 408 Cleveland builds on here, that start from 425 hp and go on up. A 500-550 hp engine should meet your requirements. The focus will be on the camshaft, however, as it will be imperative to not go too wild to help with the 3.00 rear gear.

I personally would go with a 408, skip the Trick Flow heads and go with a CHI 4V head. IMO, they are heads/shoulders above all the other 4V heads.

A "standard" rotating assembly with a steel Scat crankshaft, Molnar rods, and custom Racetec pistons (I can get them in .001" bore size increments) will serve you just fine.

You need to stick with a hydraulic roller. A solid roller's "pros" are only really viable when you get above the 6000-6500 rpm mark, and you shouldn't put the peak hp rpm up that high, considering your drivetrain specs. You should aim for something around a 5500 rpm peak and more emphasis on torque. The specs of most off-the-shelf camshafts will not be optimal at all. Clevelands, especially 4V head Clevelands, don't follow the typical SBC cam profile (6° split, 110 LSA, 106 ICL, etc.)

I would also advise against a gear drive as they transmit a lot of NVH to the valvetrain. The gear drives are more of a 60's thing than a modern engine. A conventional timing set will serve 99% of the needs here and the other 1% should probably see the use of a belt drive.

An M84A pump is what I would use. I like a little more pressure, but higher volume isn't really necessary.

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www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Thank you Brent,
I've not read the build threads extensively. I've mostly focused on those Dan Jones has linked to for the Pantera crowd in the past. I'll take some time and read more of them.

With regard to the heads. You recommend CHI over the TrickFlow, can you let me know what sways you in that direction?
How are they off-the-shelf?
Do you they require or do you recommend porting?
Do they require raised port headers? (if so, what is the recommendation?)
Do they require raised port intakes? (ditto)
(I know... some of this is probably covered in other threads, I'll get to reading soon)

With regard to gear drives, seeing fewer of them these days makes me think you're right, and I've often heard good things about quality double-roller sets. A belt-drive looks like the shiny-metal-object in the room; oooh it would be cool to have one of those... until I start looking at how they are so exposed to debris. I'm willing to take the conventional approach. Great feedback.
:)

I've run hydraulic rollers in the past and they've worked out pretty well. I had thought a solid roller might prove a bit easier for valve-train adjustment, though I imagine it might sacrifice some driveability at the low end. If I can get my target speed of 140 MPH at 5,500 rpm, then I might be good with hydraulic. I guess the next thing I need to do is calculate the rpms needed for that based on tire diameter, rear end ratio and transmission ratio.

Did I mention that I'm -not- an engineer? Can someone point me to a good resource for performing some of those calculations?
Thank you,
Asa Jay

_________________
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
1971 Mach I - 1F05M118xxx
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
https://www.facebook.com/asajaysracingforautism


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:52 am 
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The Trick Flow heads just don't perform as they should.

Head performance is dictated by flow and intake port volume (among a few other things). The port volumes between the two are pretty much a toss-up, but the CHI heads will out-flow them by about 20 cfm. For some reason, the TFS heads are always about 20 cfm behind advertised numbers.

CHI uses a standard 4V intake and a standard 4V header. Nothing special. They don't require porting.

Gear drives are a thing of the past and have not really been relevant in motorsports for 30-40 years. A belt drive is the premier way of doing things, but it's only really useful when valve spring pressures are high enough to stretch chain links. There are dust shields available for them, but again, a quality billet steel 9-keyway double timing chain set is sufficient, even for very high performance applications.

I'm a mechanical engineer as well. The calculations are easily done if you start at the engine's rpm, then go through gear ratio calculations and tire circumferences, but as most modern engineers know, it's easier to find a calculator. :)

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/rear.html

I would encourage you to browse through the forum and check out the engine builds. As I specialize in Cleveland builds, you can also find quite a bit of information and data on my website.

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brent@lykinsmotorsports.com


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Thanks Brent,
Your name did come up via another source from the Pantera world, as a go-to person, so I'm glad I'm here. :)

Okay, you've got me talked-into tossing the gear drive (I've been sitting on an extra one for over 10 years, I think I'll put it on ebay now).

Beginning last night I got curious about the rpm I'd need to turn at the engine to get 140 MPH at the rear wheels. I did the following before thinking about looking for a calculator on-line. Then of course, I recalled I had a spreadsheet from The Pantera Place that calculated the same thing for Panteras. I'll recount here what I figured out on my own and then compare to the findings in the calculator you linked to.

I found the typical C6 gear ratios and the updated ratios based on the wide ratio gear set:

Stock:
First - 2.46:1
Second - 1.46:1
Third - 1.00:1

Wide Ratio gear set from Ford Motorsport:
First - 2.72:1
Second - 1.54:1
Third - 1.00:1

So final drive doesn't change, that's what I recalled. Next, I'm running 3.00 in the rear end and was planning on near-to-stock diameter tires of about 25.5 inches. I also found information that a typical torque converter will lose anywhere from 2%-7% rpm. I didn't find any other information on additional parasitic loses inside the transmission, but figure there are more.

So for the non-engineer gearhead...
Calculate the diameter of the tire. 2PiR.
25.5/2=12.75 (radius R)
12.75x2xPi=80.07 (round to 80, this is the circumference)
Therefore the tire/wheel combo will travel 80 inches in one revolution.

One mile = 5,280 feet
5,280 x 12 = 63,360 inches
63,360 inches / 80 inches = 792 revolutions of that tire in one mile.

With a rear gear ration of 3.00:1, that means three revolutions of the pinion to one revolution of the ring gear, or axle/wheel/tire.
3 x 792 = 2,376 revolutions of the pinion in one mile, or 2,376 rpm at 60 MPH (one mile per minute)

2,376 rpm / 60 mph = 39.6 revolutions per mile an hour
39.6 x 140 (target speed) = 5,544 rpm

Sounds good, but then there are the loses from the trans and torque converter, let's just use 10%. Therefore if the transmission has to be putting out 5,544 rpm to reach 140 MPH at the rear wheels, we need to add 10% back to it.
5,544 + 554 = 6,098 (6,100 rpm rounded, this is what the engine has to put out)

If I'm close to being correct, I'll need an engine that can turn about 6,100 rpm.

Plugging the following into the calculator you linked to:
RPM = 6,100
Rear Axle ratio = 3.00
Trans ration = 1.00
Tire diameter = 25.5"
Yields a result of 154.25 MPH

I don't think the calculator accounts for losses in the transmission, so let's take 10% off and we get 154.25 - 15.4 = 138 (rounded).

I'd say that's pretty close. So I need an engine with enough power to push approximately 3,600 pounds of brick through the air while spinning at 6,100 rpm.
Sound about right?
:)

Okay, back to the CHI heads.... I'm all for not having to do much, if any, porting, and I'm all for standard intake and exhaust ports that will allow me to use standard intakes and headers. I'll begin researching these more.

I'm off to read more engine builds in the forum.
Thank you for the guidance,
Asa Jay

_________________
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
1971 Mach I - 1F05M118xxx
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
https://www.facebook.com/asajaysracingforautism


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:11 pm 
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I'd go with a hydraulic roller as well. You're within their range of operation and it'll do the job fine.

I've never liked gear drives. The one I used broke the dog links holding the gears together. A few builders I talked to said it was caused by harmonics.

I'd also go with the stroker kit, and seeing as how you'll be keeping the rpm's down, you could use the extra cubes.

Both builds you referenced from dan jones used A3 heads, which I believe are better then any of the 4v options. They also require high port intake manifolds, which might be a problem with you using your stock ram air assembly. I don't know what will fit and what won't, so it might take some trial and error. You seem well connected in the 351c/pantera crowd. So some of those people might be able to help you source old/obsolete parts.

I can't speak for the HP required to get your car that fast. So I don't know if the chi 4v heads can do it. But I will say that you're on the right forum to get you pointed in the right direction.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Late last year I did a build for a guy from New York who has a Pantera. My instructions were to build a max torque type of engine with a reasonable idle etc. On that I used a set of the TFS 195 runner heads and a Peformer RPM air gap intake that I modified by welding up the cut down divider and cutting the carburetor pad flat. Carburetor was originally a Holley Street Avenger 750 that was nearly new that I had changed to a down leg stepped booster and some reworked metering blocks, keeping the electric choke, PCV and ported vacuum provisions.

I used a Scat steel 4 inch stroke crank, Innovators West balancer, the existing steel flywheel that I converted from 28oz to zero, Scat I beam rods and KB icon dished pistons.

The cam used is a hydraulic roller from Demos' Cams HR3-7A1 which is 221 degrees at .050 intake and exhaust on a 107 lobe sep in on 105, .565 lift with a 1.73 rocker. I used a set of the regular Morel tie bar lifters, Erson pushrods, the TFS springs shimmed .060 and a set of Crane rockers.

This engine made 535lbs/ft torque at 3600 and 508 horsepower at 5800rpm with a set of Hooker "comp" headers that fit a Mustang chassis and some Magnaflow mufflers. I don't know about getting the Perf RPM under the stock hood at least with a 1 inch 4 hole spacer like this engine liked best.

The Pantera headers with a 2.5 inch outlet only hurt about 15lbs/ft torque and ran about the same for HP.

Idle:

https://youtu.be/tyYXcTY_4ws

Pull with the BHA mufflers and Pantera headers:

https://youtu.be/t7-SOWlN9qI


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Here's what the TFS 195 runner heads flowed on the torque build 410 inch Cleveland, 4.030 bore diameter 2.08 intake 1.62 ex valve:
Int:

.050 34
.1 66
.2 138
.3 203
.4 250
.5 282
.550 295
.6 308
.7 317
Ex:
.050 27
.1 56
.2 115
.3 155
.4 190
.5 206
.550 209
.6 211
.7 213

I don't know what the published numbers are but I know that at least in the past the numbers from TFS were on the moon. My friend Wes used to say that TFS stood for Totally Full of S*&t! Of course he owns about 5 pairs of them on his various big Ford powered race cars mostly A460.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:43 pm 
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Dave,
Thank you for the flow numbers on the TrickFlow 195 heads. Looking through other threads, I find this posting:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82&sid=21ef4465711561a7c9f3cb8574bb1b2c#p442
where Dan Jones said you flow benched some unported CHI 4V heads for a 408C Pantera build:

Lift Int Exh
0.025 14.1 10.5
0.050 33.3 27.5
0.100 65.7 60.2
0.200 129.5 115.7
0.300 186.2 150.8
0.400 240.5 181.7
0.500 287.5 199.0
0.600 317.5 212.5
0.700 329.6 221.7
0.800 323.0 230.9

So I'm comparing these numbers and graphing them in a spreadsheet and they look very comparable, the CHI 4V to the TrickFlow 195. Everything else being equal, the TrickFlow appear to cost a little over half what the CHI goes for (either head being fully stuffed from the factory).

The TrickFlow heads are what Dan Jones was leaning me toward earlier this year before I lost contact with him. As I recall, they too will take a stock-port-location manifold.

On my Pantera, I had an FPP4145 (Blue Thunder) intake and I very much enjoyed it. Tonight I found a claim that it will fit under the stock hood of a Mustang, with a stock air cleaner:
http://www.mustangsunlimited.com/Mustan ... 51C-4V.axd
What it doesn't say specifically is if the overall height is higher but still clears the hood.

Is there information on the height of that manifold versus a stock cast iron 4V? (I know, I should have done that comparison when I had it)
I believe the Blue Thunder is higher than stock. Would others agree?

Asa Jay

_________________
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
1971 Mach I - 1F05M118xxx
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
https://www.facebook.com/asajaysracingforautism


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:29 am 
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That would be all fine and good if the TFS heads flowed as advertised. On the bench here the CHI heads always flow as advertised and the TFS heads are always 20 cfm down.

TFS has done nothing but disappoint me, on several different engine families. My very first set of TFS TW-R heads were for a 445 Windsor and needed about $600 of port work and correction to get them to flow the 340cfm they were supposed to have flowed out of the box. They also just recently developed a set of FE cylinder heads. They actually flow the advertised numbers, but the rocker stand heights are raised .300", which means that you can't bolt on ANY rocker arm package without milling the stands down to get them to fit.

I just don't know what they're thinking, or if there are any engine guys working there at all.

If you're comparing assembled heads to assembled heads, TFS is asking $1100 EACH for their 195cc heads. I can build a set of CHI 4V heads for not much more than that and IMO it's a lot better cylinder head. They can also use stock intakes and headers.

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www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com


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