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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:33 pm
Posts: 15
Helping a mate with the design of his 408 Cleveland combo - he is after a torque monster that doesn't need to rev much past 6000RPM.

Here is the combo so far... Cam still not chosen - Need advice on this

Block - Cleveland - 4.030 , zero decked, line honed, ARP main studs, one piece rear main seal
Pistons - Custom JE, short skirt, 13cc dish, moly rings
Rods - Scat Pro-Comp iBeams
Crank - Scat 4340, balanced
Heads - Alloy AFD 2Vs - flow 315CFM@.600 - 60cc Chambers, Stainless Valves (Springs etc not yet chosen) -
200cc inlet runner volume - See specs - click link
https://www.afdheads.com/collections/cleveland-heads/products/copy-of-afd-sp4v-3v-bare-alloy-cleveland-cylinder-heads

Manifold - Edelbrock RPM Air Gap
Carb - not yet chosen
Exhaust - 1 3/4" 4 into 1s, 3" collectors
Will have 11:1 static compression ratio.
I'm thinking a hydraulic roller - with 230 - 240@50 duration, and around .600 lift.

I want a cam that is really responsive with this 11:1 408 dual plane combo that has no lag and revs to 6000ish RPM - Can anyone recommend a cam that suits?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:18 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:23 am
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Location: Texas
I see those heads intake runners are raised .100
Will that intake you have chosen gonna work?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:05 am
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Any camshaft I recommend will be a custom as I don't feel there are many off-the-shelf cams that work well with Cleveland head specs.

Where does he want the hp peak to be? If you say that he doesn't want to rev past 6000, does that mean he wants a 5500 peak and a 6000 rpm shift point?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:29 am 
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That looks like my combo and requirements I had for my ’73 Mustang convertible, except that I have used CHI 2V heads instead of the AFD 2V and had around 11.3 compression which was not a problem with our German 98 octane Super Plus.
I used a Comp custom grind flat tappet cam 230°/236° @ .050”, lift .573"/.595", LSA 112, ICL 108.
I don’t have dyno numbers but this combination revs from idle to over 6000 rpm easily with my 750 DP and pulls like a freight train with my 3.00:1 rear gears and I had enough vacuum for my power brakes.

Cheers - Ralf

BTW I have sent you a PM


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Peak hp can happen anywhere around 5500-6200rpm I guess

Peak torque target 3800-4300rpm

Is 530-550hp and 530-550ft/lb achievable?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:46 pm 
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I would think you could hit the 525 hp mark pretty easily.

Normally there's around a 1200-1500 rpm spread between peak hp and peak torque. So if you were to peak the horsepower at 5500 rpm, then peak torque would fall anywhere from 4000-4500 rpm, and it would most likely be towards the higher end of that.

If he has power brakes, then careful consideration has to be taken in order to allow enough engine vacuum to run the booster, but not make the engine sound like a sewing machine. There are lots of off-the-shelf cams that have aggressive lobes that are very noisy, but they are designed that way to keep overlap down.

Each lobe has to be chosen, in coordination with the LSA and ICL to make the entire combination work together.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:24 am
Posts: 283
I agree with Brent.
Almost 30 years ago I built a 408C with stock CC 4V heads and a hydraulic cam that made over 500 hp for use in a Pantera . This was a true "stealth" engine. The only visible performance part was the Holley Strip Dominator intake manifold. No polished parts or chrome. The motor WOULD run 6,000 in 5th gear which is faster than most Pantera owners go in 5th. Yours has better heads and more compression. the heads actually might be your limiting factor on this one.
Randy


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:01 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:58 pm
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Jules, I've done a couple of hydro roller deals of late using custom Crow Grinds.
The one I did dyno made right on 530hp and 500 ft lbs on a 393 ,so I'd expect there to be a few ft lbs more with a 408. That combination used a chi 208 and matching dual plane combo along with a 750 Quickfuel carb. Compression was around 10.7.

The other was another 393 CHI 2V headed combo that was built originally by a local engine specialist.
Had a small Crane hydro 216@50 cam and ran out of puff before 6000 due to poor valvetrain selection.
I ran thru the combo, did the heads again and had Crow custom grind a larger unit on a billet core.
Not sure on HP on that one but in a full weight XD style LTD we are confident of it running an 11. Very low maintenance combo.
The owner has reported that the new combo is far superior to the old setup and flashes past 6k quickly.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:12 am 
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Brent - 525hp @ 5500-6000 would be good result, especially if torque peak was < 4500
Ideally trying to keep overlap < 65 degrees to help with idle vacuum

Russ - Where did HP and torque peak on the 393?

I was looking at this Crow hydro roller
#211515 - Adv 294/298 228/234@50 .621"/.618" 107LSA - But the thing i did not like was that for a 228@50 - 294 Adv tells me the lobe has a slow ramp, and might have too much overlap, which could make idle vacuum too low.

Has anyone had any experiences with Comp Xtreme Energy 232/236@50 hydro roller lobes?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:37 am 
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I have experience with about all of them and don't particularly care for the Xtreme Energy or XFI lobes at all. They are short advertised duration in comparison to the .050" duration (this is called hydraulic intensity). This helps curb overlap, but the cams are noisy because the opening/closing rates are high.

The Crower hydraulic roller is a very lazy camshaft. It would be quiet, but between the advertised duration and LSA, it has 82° of overlap.

I ship cams to Australia all the time and would be happy to make a recommendation for you. The lobes that I use are quiet but the whole camshaft is designed to make the horsepower where you want it and still have vacuum for brakes, etc.

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