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ALL things related to the Ford 351C
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:38 am 
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Posts: 213
What a great website and bunch of guys. Im building my 1970 351 2bbl. It is in my 70 torino convertible, about 4000Lbs. c4, 3.50 rear 9. The car is currently running, in fact it runs really good to my perspective, but theres untapped potential there plus the motor is 45 years old with out a rebuild Ihave some parts waiting for the build, dougs headers, eddy rpm intake, eddy heads on order, quick fuel HR 680 vs. So now Im trying to decide on the cam, and would like some input on pistons. The heads are 60 cc.

This is going to be a street machine not a drag car. I have posted other questions and received a lot of good info. Switching from 3.00 to 3.50 posi was a nice upgrade, the car feels like it is always alert and ready to go if you know what I mean. Thanks blykins for your help sofar. I was surprised in the different recommendations between the guys that build these engines such as your self and the cam dealers. The cam dealers are very conservative i.e. comp cam says use 260 hyd roller 206/206 510/510 110, cam research said use custom grind 208/ 213 @.050 520/520 112. idle -5200. I asked him for next up he said 216/220 545/545 110. The last cam I bought was for a 63 390 hipo from Isky 3/4 race great top end but slow take off that was 40 yrs ago. I do want to go with roller cam with link lifters and roller rockers. As far as pistons, what will work with those 60 cc heads on 91 octane, I realize the cam will make a difference on my compression ratio also. Any info from experience is appreciated. Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:52 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:49 pm
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I apologize if Im repeating myself here but I originally was going to stay out of the bottom end but have been convinced to replace rod bolts and recon rods or buy new rods with good bolts. I suspect my rings are tired after all those years so I will bore hone as necessary, turn crank, and have everything balanced, I want this motor to last. The machinist seems well qualified. If I need a higher stall convertor I will do that but not too much.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:01 am
Posts: 41
I recommend buying something other than the Edelbrock aluminum heads. They are said to be only about as good as the OEM iron ones. I bought (and then returned) mine in favor of a set of Trick Flow heads (I went with the 195cc CNC ported versions with 62cc chambers (also CNC'ed)).

As for cams, I can tell you from experience that you should look at Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR), Wallace Racing has a nice calculator. When I ran a (flat tappet) Comp cam (XE262H) very similar to what you mention with 302C heads, the DCR was too high and it was a detonation monster. Changed to a XE274 and it was better (but idle vacuum starts to suffer a bit). You said you are going roller but I have the comp XE262H in excellent, slightly used condition and a Crane 133042 cam/lifter kit BNIB, both available for sale should you or anyone have interest.

I run and prefer the Edelbrock Air Gap manifold over the Performer RPM (although I still have one of those from WAY back and ran it for a long time).

To run on pump fuel, I suggest going no higher than 10.5:1 with aluminum heads, 10:1 with iron, and you have to have the right cam for proper DCR.

Regards,

Robert


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:49 pm
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Thanks for the info. You said I have the right cam for proper DCR, which cam? the xe 262? The detonation monster? I already have the eddy heads coming, they have got to be better than my 76 cc open chamber 2bbl heads. I see a lot of hot builds using the chi and trick flow heads. I was just reading an article where Hot Rod had a ford 400 built by Jeff Huneycutt that made 505 hp at 5500 and 565 ft lbs at 4300 using the eddy 351 heads and performer 400 intake, 234/234 .598/.598 crane cam hyd roller. He used chevy rods and chrysler 340 pistons to bring it up to 431 cu in. Surely those heads will be good enough for street car.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:58 pm
Posts: 200
I've used the Edelbrocks on both 393 and 351 engines before and they are an entry level aluminium head. They can still make decent power but they need a decent valve job IMHO.

I used a set last year that yielded 413 hp and similar torque using a Hyd flat 972855 crane blue racer cam. Went into a street car and the owner was quite happy with the performance. I know it's not a Hyd roller but it gives you an idea .


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:07 am 
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Thanks Russ. Appreciate the info.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:23 am
Posts: 935
Location: Texas
--I think any of the aftermarket aluminium Cleveland heads are steps above the original cast heads. No only are you getting the benefit of saving weight but usually you dont have to crank the timing up so far with the aluminium heads and you usually get away with running more compression with pump gas.
--Just remember one thing, dont fall in love with all the desk top dyno numbers and Hot Rod magazine numbers cause then you will be disappointed when yours doesnt make the same power as theirs. when i was playing with desk top dyno, it was saying my current engine was going to make close to 600 hp at 7000rpm. well guess what, it made 521hp@6300 and 453tq@5600 on a real dyno. Maybe on Hot Rods dyno mine would have made 600-700 hp cause it seems like they are really pumping out some top fuel dragster engine numbers on their dyno. -Matt


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:01 am 
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Yea, the new heads will raise my comp due to the smaller 60 cc quench chambers Im just not sure what piston will keep compression low enough for pump gas. I don't know what the piston to deck clearance is yet as Im still driving the car until I get the parts I need to start. I guessed at .018 with .040 head gasket 4.030 bore piston with 3cc valve relief and I come up with 10.74 static. on compression calculator. I don't know for sure but I think that might be too high for 91 octane and a street cam around 224 duration. Whats your opinions.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:08 am 
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Unless you're wanting to get wild with the horsepower, I really don't think you need a cylinder head change. A well-chosen roller cam and a properly curved distributor will net you a lot more performance.

There are no off-the-shelf cams that really work with a Cleveland. Just a small LSA or ICL change can make a huge difference. As with all engine families, I would contact an engine builder that specializes in Clevelands for help with a camshaft. The whole package has to work together.

Pistons are easy and there are even some very affordable, quality, forged pistons out there.

_________________
Brent Lykins, Lykins Motorsports
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:49 pm
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Well, my reason to buy the new heads originally was to either get some work done on my heads i.e. hardened valve seats, guides and studs for a roller cam etc. so instead of spending money on the orig 2bbl open chamber heads I would buy the edelbrock heads and put my virgin heads away in case I ever need to put it back to stock. Im not on a tight budget. I just want quick reliable street machine. Im pretty much committed to the heads at this point.
I consider you guys the cleveland experts or at least experienced cleveland owners. Your right, I have talked to the machinist but I haven't actually asked for a cam recomendation yet, Ill do that tomorrow.
Thanks guys for all the feedback.


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