www.the351cforum.com

ALL things related to the Ford 351C
It is currently Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:50 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 351C Build
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:08 pm
Posts: 277
Location: Everywhere !
Working on a long term project, always enjoyed building 351C's over the years.

Here's the Combo

72 351C 2 bolt Block .030 over, 0 decked and line honed.
Factory Crank 10/10 and Factory Rods with ARP bolts
Probe FT Forget Pistons

Cam is a Howards Mechanical FT 236 / 240 @ .050 .621 / .639 on a 108
Crower EDM Lifters
Double Roller Timing Set

Heads

1973 D3ZZ OC heads with 2.19 / 1.71 SS Valves, New Guides and Hard Exhaust Seats.
Mild Bowl Blend that I need to Finish and put them on the Bench.
ARP Studs and Comp 3/8 Guide Plates and have some 950-16 Springs and LW tool steel retainers.

1.73 Harlin Sharp Roller Rockers

Havent decided on a Intake yet, but I have a Torker, a strip Dominator or a Bud Moore Box Intake to choose from right now, along with a couple for factory iron intakes.

If I run the Torker or Holly Intake I'll run a 750 HP I put together for EMC a few years back or if I run the Bud Moore I'll put together a 750 Dominator.

Other Parts Include a MSD Billet Distributor and a Milodon Oil Pan.

Hoping to get about 450 out of it.... on pump gas.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:05 am
Posts: 2417
You'll hit that without an issue if you use the Strip Dominator....

_________________
Brent Lykins, Lykins Motorsports
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:27 am
Posts: 60
Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA
> Havent decided on an intake yet, but I have a Torker, a Strip Dominator or a
> Bud Moore Box Intake to choose from right now, along with a couple ford
> factory iron intakes.

Dave McLain and I have dyno tested all of the above intake manifolds on a
closed chamber 4V headed 351C. From that list, the Strip Dominator should work
best on your combo. The Ford iron intakes will lose a bunch of power. You're
not likely to be into the operating RPM range of the Bud Moore Ram Box. It
also needs a really big pump shot to run on the street. A Parker Funnelweb
would also work well on that combo and an Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap (for
2V heads) might also surprise you. On our 400+ HP at 6000 RPM test engine, it
had a similar area under the curve with more peak torque but less peak power
than the Strip Dominator. Your engine should peak at least 500 RPM higher
than ours so things should shift towards the Strip Dominator. A Blue Thunder
high rise dual plane would also work well if the plenum is worked to bring
the 4 bad runners up to match the 4 good runners.

Dan Jones

_________________
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri USA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:08 pm
Posts: 277
Location: Everywhere !
what kind of numbers did the Bud Moore Intake made compaired to the conventional single planes?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:27 am
Posts: 60
Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA
> what kind of numbers did the Bud Moore Intake made compared to the conventional single planes?

Turns out we tested the Bud Moore intake on a 408C, not the dyno mule 351C.
Specs on the 408C were:

Bobby Oliver Holley HP950
double pumper with electric choke
Blue Thunder dual plane aluminum intake manifold
CHI-4V aluminum heads, unported
2.19" intake and 1.71" exhaust Manley Severe Duty valves
1.73:1 ratio stainless roller rockers (Norris or Crower)
Ford 4 bolt main cast iron 351C block
SCAT 408C stroker kit (4-351C-4000-6000):
4340 forged steel crank, 4.0" stroke, nitride hardened
SCAT H-beam forged steel rods, 6" long, SBC journal
Probe forged pistons, 16cc dish, 2618-T61 aluminum , full floating,
1/16", 1/16", 3/16" rings, 1.2" CH, 435 grams w/o pin, p/n 14213-030
Snout spacer (made by Dave McLain)
Powerbond 9000 Series SFI balancer
Pete Jackson quiet gear drive
FRPP M-6500-S58 "Early Block Hydraulic Roller Lifter Set"
10:1 compression (91 octane)
408 cubic inches (4.03" bore by 4" stroke)
Trend custom length push rods
Aviad Pantera gated and baffled road race oil pan
Aluminum water pump (Dennis Quella modified with backing plate)

The engine was built for a friend's street Pantera and used Pantera shorty
headers but the tests below used Hooker Competition headers (part number
HOK-6920HKR, 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries with 3" diameter by 8"
long collector) and Magnaflow mufflers on the dyno. Engine was tested
through the mufflers and no intake bellmouth or air cleaner was used. Many
of the parts like the gear drive, rocker arms, valves, oil pan, etc, were
recycled from Mike's previous poorly matched 351C. Mike wanted to also
retain the flat base Blue Thunder dual plane intake manifold which, based
upon earlier flow bench and dyno work, we knew would have 4 bad runners
and 4 good runners. The intake was worked to bring the 4 good runners up
to match the good runners.

Dave McLain flow benched the unported CHI-4V cylinder heads:

Lift Int Exh
0.025 14.1 10.5
0.050 33.3 27.5
0.100 65.7 60.2
0.200 129.5 115.7
0.300 186.2 150.8
0.400 240.5 181.7
0.500 287.5 199.0
0.600 317.5 212.5
0.700 329.6 221.7
0.800 323.0 230.9

and I measured the intake, heads, headers, etc. to feed Dynomation the required
information so I could design the cam using the Pro Iterator tool. The cam was
a hydraulic roller designed to make best power between 4000 and 6500 RPM with a
peak around 6000 RPM. I crossed the ideal cam to the Bullet lobe catalog and we
ended up with the following specs:

236/240 degrees @ 0.050" (291/297 deg adv), 0.616"/0.596" lift, 108 LSA

using Bullet hydraulic roller lobes HR291/356 (intake) and HR297/344 (exhaust):

Master Adv .050 .200 Lobe 1.73:1 Lash Type
HR291/356 291 236 156 .3560 .6159 .000 CRA
HR297/344 297 240 156 .3443 .5956 .000 CRA

I drove the Pantera in Reno, Nevada and the engine is quite tractable. You could
daily drive it with no problems and it pulls strong through the rev range until you
run out of road.

We tested a bunch of intakes, including the Bud Moore. The best of the lot were
the ported Blue Thunder, Holley Strip Dominator and Edelbrock Scorpion. Here
are a few of the results.


Day 2 Testing

Test 1 Blue Thunder (ported)
Baseline pull for today good pull with a small misfire in the middle of the
pull, I think a plug was loaded a little because we did some messing around
warming up the engine. Same as Test 9 from previous day, 28 timing, 76 and
88 jets in 950HP straight (no spacer) on the Blue Thunder intake.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
4000 369 483
4100
4200 391 489
4300 403 492
4400 414 494
4500 425 496
4600 436 497
4700 447 499
4800 458 501
4900 464 497
5000 462 485
5100 464 478
5200 478 482
5300 488 483
5400 498 484
5500 505 481
5600 503 473
5700 504 465
5800 511 463
5900 519 462
6000 526 460
6100 507 437

Test 5 Holley Strip Dominator
Back to the stock jetting in the 950HP and power picked up a little with the
Strip Dominator.

4000 370 481
4100 376 479
4200 386 483
4300 395 483
4400 401 480
4500 410 479
4600 421 481
4700 434 485
4800 447 488
4900 457 490
5000 466 490
5100 484 495
5200 486 493
5300 490 486
5400 496 483
5500 500 477
5600 496 466
5700 495 456
5800 502 455
5900 513 457
6000 518 454


Test 8 Edelbrock Scorpion
Edelbrock Scorpion intake with 950HP. Seems to be very good for torque and HP
when compared to baseline or anything else. Good solid torque and HP across
the board. Will not fit under a stock Pantera engine screen but this intake
does have a level carburetor pad.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
4000 390 507
4100 393 505
4200 403 505
4300 414 505
4400 423 505
4500 433 505
4600 446 508
4700 457 511
4800 464 508
4900 473 507
5000 480 504
5100 486 501
5200 492 497
5300 499 495
5400 504 491
5500 507 484
5600 505 473
5700 507 467
5800 509 461
5900 516 460
6000 525 459


Test 9 Backup of Scorpion
Allowed intake to heat soak and did a pull from 3000 rpm. After a good heat
soak, intake produced more realistic power levels very much inline with our
baseline with the ported Blue Thunder intake. The Scorpion looks much like a
Torker with an intergral spacer and level carb pad. However, the Scorpion
works much better on this engine than the Torker with spacer did on Glen's 408C.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3000 253 440
3100 257 437
3200 265 435
3300 272 436
3400 291 445
3500 299 449
3600 308 451
3700 320 454
3800 334 462
3900 350 471
4000 366 480
4100 380 487
4200 393 491
4300 405 494
4400 416 497
4500 428 500
4600 442 503
4700 451 505
4800 459 503
4900 466 499
5000 474 498
5100 480 495
5200 487 492
5300 499 494
5400 503 490
5500 504 481
5600 503 472
5700 504 464
5800 507 459
5900 511 455
6000 510 446


Test 12
Bud Moore box intake with 4 hole 1 inch spacer. Did not run particularly
well and seemed to have rather weird changes in mixture with the wideband
from about 11:1 to very lean and back again randomly through the pull.
Fuel puddling was evident when the top was removed.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3000 253 440
3100 258 438
3200 268 439
3300 278 442
3400 288 445
3500 299 449
3600 316 458
3700 328 466
3800 344 476
3900 358 482
4000 368 484
4100 380 487
4200 391 489
4300 402 491
4400 415 495
4500 426 497
4600 436 498
4700 444 496
4800 453 495
4900 459 492
5000 464 487
5100 469 483
5200 476 481
5300 481 477
5400 485 471
5500 486 464
5600 483 454
5700 480 442
5800 484 438
5900 486 432
6000 481 421

It appears the Bud Moore needs more RPM than our engine was designed for.
Also, I designed the cam based upon the induction length of the Blue Thunder
intake manifold, not the considerably longer Bud Moore runners. It would be
interesting to try a Kendig/Predator variable venturi carb on the Bud Moore.

In this testing the ported Blue Thunder and better single plane intakes
performed very closely. In prior testing on the dyno mule 351C, an unported
Blue Thunder was down 41 HP to the Strip Dominator.

Dan Jones

_________________
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri USA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:08 pm
Posts: 277
Location: Everywhere !
Thanks for sharing


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:08 pm
Posts: 277
Location: Everywhere !
just picked up a 750 dominator to try on the box intake, I think I'm going to give it a roll. May even see about doing some kind of EFI on the manifold.... Hummm.......


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:27 am
Posts: 60
Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA
I think the Bud Moore Ram Box would make an excellent port injection manifold. With it flowing just air, you wouldn't have the wet flow problems. You'd want to design the cam to work with the runner length (easily done in Dynomation) and make sure headers work with the combo (using Pipemax).

Dan Jones

_________________
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri USA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:08 pm
Posts: 277
Location: Everywhere !
Think I'm going to use the Torker. Next R&R home I need to finish honing the block and balance the rotating assembly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 351C Build
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:57 pm
Posts: 79
Very interested to hear a follow-up on how this worked out for you. Almost identical to what I had in mind. I was looking at the same Howards flat tappet with lightly ported closed chamber 4v heads (pockets, guide bosses profiled and and short side laid back a bit) forged TRW flat tops, and a torker with the divider between the two short ports built up with epoxy and the plenum re-worked to mate with a Reher-Morrison shear plate.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group