www.the351cforum.com

ALL things related to the Ford 351C
It is currently Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:15 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1068 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101 ... 107  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:39 pm
Posts: 1402
LOL, thanks. Interesting to pull 3 or 4, I would have guessed at adding. I always watch MPH, ET isn't a power indicator. Looks like I need to get it running on 34~37 and once it runs/leaves consistent, start playing with the timing. The AFDs liked 26 vs 28, but these will be iron with old design chambers.

Web says various =
"For alcohol fuels that are run richer than gasoline fuels, more timing is typical"

"Timing does change for bigger ci stuff, my gas carb actually runs at less timing them my alky. But when I ran small blocks the alky was 7-8 degrees less on alky."

"I've yet to try and lower mine any, I was happy on the dyno so I didnt mess with it. Ran it there last year also. You may try going a few and see what it does. I remember my 468 a few years back @ 39 degrees ran 8.40's, I decided to go 33 with it ran 8.20's. Slapped a different intake on it and moved it to 32 and it ran 8.0's, not to shabby for $1500 short block, in a 2010lb car"

"Flame speeds are greater in alcohol fuels than for gasoline fuels in lean, highway fuel mixtures. In one combustion engineering test, methanol flame speed was compared to gasoline flame speed at lean mixtures for each respective fuel. Methanol combustion flame speed was 42% faster than the combustion flame speed in gasoline. Less ignition timing was needed for methanol, however, spark advance in racing is usually greater for methanol than for gasoline.

Mixture enrichment is common for racing alcohol fuels. For rich alcohol mixtures, ignition delay is increased. As a result, usually more ignition timing is needed. The amount of increased timing for alcohol fuels is very dependent on the amount of enrichment.

More enrichment of alcohol fuels usually needs more ignition timing.

Example: For blown gasoline at around 2 atmospheres, 28 degrees of ignition timing is common for best power. For the same blown engine on alcohol at a richer mixture, 32 degrees of timing is common.

Example: One methanol combustion engineering test measured a 22% reduction in methanol flame speed for a 19% increase in fuel enrichment. An increase in timing was needed for best power."

_________________
Chris - Merkel, TX
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
"Owner built, owner abused."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 937
Location: Orange County, NC
I used to run 40*, even more with my OC heads. I think a lot of it goes back to how rich you have to run it to make it happy. When it's not as fat, it wont require as much timing because there isnt as much liquid in there to try and ignite so it wont need as much lead to set it off.
Granted this is all just a guess from a guy that cant keep head gaskets in a motor now. LOL

Speaking of which, the forecast changed over night and the promoters said the plan is to run Friday and move Saturday's purse to Sunday as Saturday is the worst looking day of the weekend. They are going to take Sunday's purse and add it to tomorrow's race. They said if some miracle the forecast changes for Saturday, they will run something. But as it stands, we are now racing for $20k on Friday and $40k on Sunday.

I'm really thinking I'm going to throw caution to the wind and double enter for the weekend. No guts no glory.
If you're bored at work tomorrow and have nothing to do on Sunday, the race will be broadcast live on MotorManiaTV on youtube.
You all know what my rolling trash can looks like.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:57 am
Posts: 226
G,day,
yeah beats me, a lot of info says more timing on methanol, few smart guys i spoke to said the opposite and said to pull the 3 or 4 as a rule of thumb if alky is the only change to a known combo then go from there on the dyno or track and see where you end up.
My combo pretty well mirrored what i was told.
On avgas with a flat piston it wanted 26 - 28, methanol same combo 24 max ( managed to hurt rod bearings and cam bearings and push big ends out of round at 30 degrees, bit of a tuning oops with only 11.6 comp )
Same combo know with a domed piston and over 13.1 wants 31 degrees.
The more efficient the piston top and combustion chamber the less timing is required and desired.
I really like those 1013 gaskets, i copper coat them and retorque them
Cheers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:39 pm
Posts: 1402
For that kind of money, might as well go all in. What the hell. Bracket finals weather looks good for our folks on Saturday over in Ennis. 68-88 temp, lite N wind. Cars should be fast. Should be fast today - DA is 1417 over there right now.

I'll probably start around 34 degrees and see how it likes that. THis is a flat top piston/65cc iron chamber 10.5:1 setup that has run as much as 40 on 110 gas but it seems to do best at 36~37. I may start it on gas and run it to 6300 to see if the ignition issue is solved first. Then switch over to alcohol at the track. No sense in chasing several problems. If it still stutters above 6K then I've got other issues. It is starting to push the dip stick on a pass and the evacs are working, so it's looking like time for rings and valve seals. Haven't been in this motor since 2006 or 2008 I think.

Hah, I like the 1013s but I never re-use. At $40 each, I toss and use fresh, install dry.

_________________
Chris - Merkel, TX
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
"Owner built, owner abused."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 937
Location: Orange County, NC
The forecast changed again, so they went back to the original plan of 10/40/10 to win.
I double entered for the weekend. It hurt to write that check. LOL

Talk about a day. They didnt have as many cars today as expected, so that made doubling up an adventure. I won first round on both entries, then won second on both. The third round things got funky. I was running a fairly quick Nova (smallblock car dialed 5.48), I turned the top bulb on, he turned his on and I started to bump in. He went in first, I kept bumping, then my red light came on. What? His tree started and he just sat there for a few seconds then finally drove on down the track. I backed up looked at the starter, he radioed the tower, then motioned me to go down the track. What the ever living fuck?!?!?! I got back to the trailer, tossed the charger on it, put a little fuel in it, and grabbed my phone to see if I could find where I was on the video feed. I found it, but the camera angle wasnt very good and you couldnt see our top bulbs. Fuck it, I'm still in on one, so I went up to the lanes. One of the promoters came running across the staging lanes as I pulled up. He told me they couldnt see the top bulb either, but based on when he stopped moving (got staged) there was about 2.5 seconds until my red light came on. So they were going to put me back in. Ok, cool. I left the dial, got lined up with a tuff racer, and we had us a good ole drag race that I came out on the wrong end of a double breakout (mine picked up almost 2 whole numbers by half track, where the hell did that come from?) Then, shit got worse. In the shut down area, my car shut off. I coasted off the track on to the return road, stopped, couldnt get it to fire. And I mean, no fire. Spin over like a champ, no fire. Finally one of the track folks came down and asked if I needed a tow. After the round was over (remember, I'm still in on one entry), they towed me back to my trailer. I thrashed about, hooked up my timing light and spun it over and nothing. Checked the wires to the distributor, then the MSD box, then went to the fuse block. I pulled the fuse out of the slot next to the one for the ignition, just jammed it in there, and spun it over to see if it had any spark, and it fired up. Ok, gotta find a new fuse for it. I found one, stuck it in there correctly, jumped in the car, no fire. Sonofabitch. I pulled it out, stuck it in there all crooked, and it fired up. I got to the lanes and was the second to last car there. Everyone was in one lane, and I lost lane choice. Still being rather jacked up from all the thrashing about, you can guess what happened next; I went red.
Tomorrow I'm going to swap the wires on those two fuses just in case something like that happens again.

_________________
1969 mustang, 377C/powerglide
2011 Roxboro Dragway Top ET Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 937
Location: Orange County, NC
I realized I had posts on my fuse block that were directly wired, no fuses. So I hooked the ignition wire up to one of them.We had to stop at least half a dozen times for light rain and mist before it finally cleared up before round two.
Man I felt good yesterday. First time run I was .000 and the car ran a touch quicker than I expected. Second time run I didnt touch anything and was .008 and it slowed to about where I had figured it was going to run. First round, first entry, I was running the slowest car there, so I stuck .002 in the box not sure how it was going to react sitting that long on the 'brake, dialed up one from my last time run, and was .008. Ran down to the finish line, didnt think I was gonna get there, so I gave it one rip. He went thru first by .003, but broke out by .010 to my .007 breakout. Cool. One down. Next entry, I dialed it down to what it looked like it would have run, and met the bulb as it was coming on, -.016. Oh well, I'm still in on one and that's all it takes. Second round the dew point had dropped, the humidity and temp were down, and now I had sat for well over an hour between passes. I didnt know what to dial. So, I dialed it between the first two passes of the day. It didnt matter, I had my worst light of the weekend; .048. My man is dialed 5.29, has a .008, and is whomping like hell as he went around me to go dead 4. Sonofabitch. If I'm 20 he breaks out.
I'll go back and try it again today. No time runs today and it's supposed to be the nicest day of the weekend.

_________________
1969 mustang, 377C/powerglide
2011 Roxboro Dragway Top ET Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 937
Location: Orange County, NC
This big money racing is just plain stupid. It seemed if you were worse than about a .015 pack, you were toast. They had 4 cars left from yesterdays race they had to run first. I watched them, and they were all about 2 numbers quicker than yesterday. First round I checked the weather station, looked back in my log book, and everything was saying it was going to go 6.36 (it went several 38s yesterday). I get to the lanes, put a 6.36 on it, and as I am standing there during the prayer, and then the national anthem, my gut kept saying, "it's going to go 38..... 38, not 36." My mind said, the weather station says 36, everyone is quicker than yesterday. I leave the dial, but decide to add .002 to the box because I had been between .000 and .008 every time I had hit it well, and I figured it was better to be safe than sorry. I get suited up and start the run. Everything seems good, I let go of the button, I can tell it was pretty good, get to the finish line and he has a fender on me, he drops the nose so I stab the brakes. His win lite comes on. I get my ticket, I'm .000 to his .006 and dead 3. I go 6.391 killing a full mph (would have gone a high 38 wide open.) Well shit.
Oh well, on to my second entry. I dial it 6.39 cuz the air had gotten a little worse, added .003 to the box (normally I would have added .010, but hey, there's just not that much margin of error now plus I already have .005 more in the box than I have run for the last 4 races and have been good.) It felt late when I let go of it, hit the stripe and had some room so I stabbed the brakes, 6.391 killing about 1.5 mph, my win lite came on. Sixty foot was .001 slower, half track was identical. Cool.
They run the re-entry cars, I leave the 6.39 although in the back of my mind was saying it was gonna go 40. And, it didnt matter. I was -.004, race over. It did go 6.404.
As I was sitting there listening to the announcer, all I kept hearing was; 14 pack no good, 17 pack no good, perfect lite and dead 4, 5 pack to a 7 pack, etc.
Everybody that goes to those kinds of races, their stuff is so good, you better have your A game, not A-, but straight up A game on every pass. Some guys get a lucky one now and then, but that's usually against guys like me. LOL
I need to rethink if I ever want to run one of these again.

On a side note, I still have a miss in high gear once and awhile. It still doesnt affect how it runs, but I would prefer it run clean all the way down the track.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:57 am
Posts: 226
Bad luck mate!
You were going real well, good lights!
Cheers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:39 pm
Posts: 1402
I runnered up one year at Div 4 Finals in footbrake - car ran 7.57 3 in a row, final late at night with rain about to start. Sitting in the car thinking "maybe 7.55". Didn't do anything, could have had my wife change it. Got him on the tree, took the stripe - 7.55 on a 57. Picked up the ticket and on the return road into the pits it started raining. Wife and I just sat there in the car a while, seemed fitting. Cost me $2000 in win money and forever fame LOL. Sometimes that gut knows what the hell it's talking about.

If I ever get at least one of the cars dialed in pretty tight, I'd consider signing up for something like Luke Bogacki's pay wall to pick up some of the higher end information. A lot of these guys are just real good at carry 2 back into you, plus their equipment is in the top1%. Guys I run with even here at our little races run $50K chassis and same or better motors and such. Some don't, our Super Pro leader this year is a S-10 pickup. Sandlin runs mid 6s but wins a LOT of rounds. The rest of the Top 10 in Super are all dragsters LOL.

There are days when a .015 or .010 package won't buy you an order of fries. There are other days when Super Pro ought to be glad that Footbrake isn't running in their class.

Methanol update - pulled the home brew duraspark out and put the MSD unti in the car. First thing I noticed is that it started way easier. Even with the guesstimate location had it idling with 50 degrees lead.

Timing set at 34. Front shooter switched down from .055 to .046 - carb has 30cc front/50cc rear pumps. Replaced the pump umbrella in the front. No jet changes. Got it warm and gave it a couple of good hard wings, no stumble. Tested air shifter and it fired hard, so - I dunno about that one. Set shift back up to 6300. Timing light, gas carb, bunch of Holley parts, pin drill set and 5 gallons of 110 for backup. Waiting for Friday now. Hopefully they fixed the sensor power harness in the tower so I don't have to spend an hour or two helping diag the track timing system.

_________________
Chris - Merkel, TX
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
"Owner built, owner abused."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Racing
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 937
Location: Orange County, NC
Hopefully it behaved for you.

Our forecast for tomorrow looks really good. I changed the hi speed air bleeds back to what came in it. I figured it was worth a shot now that I've fattened the jetting up so much. I want to get rid of that intermittent high gear miss it has. I might need to try staging a little hotter as well.

It's our last points race of the year. I'm currently in a three way tie for 8th. At the start of the year I had hoped to finish top 5 at this track as I had never run points here before. But now, after a weekend of breaking the car and one where I couldn't do anything right, I just want to finish top ten. That means I need to go some rounds tomorrow.

_________________
1969 mustang, 377C/powerglide
2011 Roxboro Dragway Top ET Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1068 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101 ... 107  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group