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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:25 pm 
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I don't feel there will be any problems with the block. I have one of the supra cast alloy blocks. With where I am at for hp, doubt the block will be flexing much, be interesting to see what happens with this combo. Yes every cam I have changed to since building 377, has increased hp. I have used the specs from dyno 2000, and have good luck with them. In reality, there probably is not more than a 15 hp difference between top 3 cam profiles. Only way huge difference, if your out of the ball park in the first place...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:46 pm 
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I’ve seen 40 hp difference at the 700 hp level. The issue is that no matter how strong the design, or how high quality alloy it is, aluminum still expands. My guess is that you will still have to set your cold lash about .014-015” tight and if that’s the case, the block is expanding that much. But of course I’ve been wrong before and I’m sure I’ve got many more opportunities to be wrong in the future...LOL

I did a back to back cam swap on my 354. There was not much difference between the durations, 2 deg between the LSA and similar lift. One cam was good for 28 hp over the other one though. Horsepower peaks were within 200 rpm of each other.

There are a couple of things that DD does that doesn’t really follow the reality of engine building. For instance, advancing the cam doesn’t always move the peak hp rpm down, or add torque. DD will make that change every single time but in reality, I’ve seen hp gains by advancing the cam.

On KV’s cam, I think the duration difference between his Crower and my cam were almost negligible but their LSA was much tighter. Sometimes the overlap makes the intake charge come in and go right back out without converting to power.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family, Tim.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Happy thanksgiving to you and your family. I never had an aluminum block, but with casting technology and metallurgy, and only 800 or so hp, it should be stable. How much will it move, only time will tell, and I have been wrong before too. I guess I do not get hung up is it the right decision, it is not about being wrong, or right on what block material, it is about supporting the only real Cleveland block out there. Being positive about something this site is based on. I hate to see you with such strong conviction about trackboss or aluminum blocks. I figured you would be excited about another Cleveland test bed. To me Its about something I have personally been involved with from the beginning. And I have waited for 13 years. I want a foundation, I do not have to worry about. Be it aluminum or cast. I wanted cgi, but I also do not want to wait any longer. Aluminum is ready, so am I. What i loose in HP is negligible, from what I have read about supra cast it's tensile strength of 52,000 psi, compared to iron at 40,000 psi, typical aluminum blocks are 356-T6, they are 42,000 psi. the sleeve in block is 100,000 psi. With tensile strength supra cast alloy is inherently stronger, but does not take into consideration of different metals together, with iron sleeves, and aluminium block, steel crank and block. This is where your concern is in regards to stability, I understand your opinion, and at 2000 hp, yes things are moving way more than only 800 hp or so. The blocks will be cast filled also, will not affect cooling.

Yes you are right, in a nutshell, don't matter what anything says, other than the track numbers. The good thing is we know what my combo makes now and does in quarter. When we run the TrackBoss weather dyno or track, we will be able to compare. I would love to have a different set of heads like higgins, or cook, or chi 400. But not in the cards right now. I am going to see what best decision is for cam, keep what I have, you, Bullet, Ed Curtis, straub, lots of people. Be fun to do a cam swap dyno session, then we will know.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:06 am 
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Tim, I think a lot of people have the wrong opinion about me. I'm not against Track Boss blocks. I think they're great and what the Cleveland market needs. As a matter of fact, I've had my name on Tim's list for 2-3 cast iron blocks for the past several years. I'm sitting here patiently waiting for them. I have one earmarked for Brian Gilchrist, since he's wanting to change his engine back to a true Cleveland. (I wanna see him make his ET match his 141 mph trap speed first though....) I have invited Tim Meyer to advertise here many, many times. I think he has a reservation about it though, since we are both builders and we both advertise. That may be wise on his part, but his block is a cool thing and the more advertising the better.

It would be nice if tensile strength were the only component in block stability. I come from a manufacturing/mechanical engineering background and we all know that aluminum blocks will survive very high amounts of horsepower. The way that they squirm and move around is what makes them better choices for extreme horsepower builds. They will flex instead of break. That's why a lot of Mopar guys use aluminum main caps.....SBF guys use aluminum main girdles, etc.

However, the biggest issue is the heat expansion coefficient and the Supracast alloy will still expand....because it's aluminum. I took some time a few months ago to sit down and compare the physical properties between it and 356-T6. That expansion rate is what costs horsepower because you lose ring seal. This is a common trait of every aluminum block out there, with the exception of solid billet blocks.

For instance, the thermal expansion rate of ductile/gray cast iron is around 5*10^-6 in/in/°F. The thermal expansion rate of Supracast is 11.4*10^-6 in/in/°F. The thermal expansion rate of typical 356T6 alloy is 11.9*10^-6 in/in/°F.

In order to do a nice apples/apples test between cast iron/aluminum blocks, someone would have to use the same displacement and every individual component between platforms. The compression ratio would have to be the same and that would mean letting the pistons hang out of the aluminum block by about .015" so that when it gets to operating temperature, the block would expand up around the piston.

I, along with a bunch of other builders, have done those tests. Albeit, it's been with Windsors and FE's, but it's been done many times. You don't need to go to the 1000 hp level to see the difference. You can see it at around the 700 hp mark. Now, in a dirt late model car where weight loss is paramount, it's not a big deal. But losing 40 hp on a 700-800 hp bracket engine is kind of a big deal.

I fully understand for guys to be on the defensive when I talk about aluminum blocks, especially when they've been fully vested in a product design/idea/marketing campaign. I want to see Tim Meyer succeed as well, but after all my wrestling and fights with aluminum blocks, I simply choose to wait for cast iron.

Now as for camshafts, one of the guys you mentioned was the guy who sent me a camshaft to try on my 354C that made 28 hp less........he sent me a 5/8 race cam next to my 25/32.

Doing a cam swap on the dyno is fun, but in order to be fair to everyone, you basically have to change valve springs, degree the cam, and even change pushrod length in some cases for each test.

Give me a call in the next day or two and let's catch up. Haven't talked to you in a while.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:27 pm 
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Brent

"Now as for camshafts, one of the guys you mentioned was the guy who sent me a camshaft to try on my 354C that made 28 hp less........he sent me a 5/8 race cam next to my 25/32."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Chevy guys always cracked me up with this 3/4 race cam talk. When they would say this I would always tell them "man you only gotta 3/4 of a race cam, shit I gotta full race cam in my Cleveland" I have had some tell me "Well thats cause you got those big block heads on it" That use to open up a whole new discussion :D


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:06 am 
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DragBoss wrote:
Happy thanksgiving to you and your family. I never had an aluminum block, but with casting technology and metallurgy, and only 800 or so hp, it should be stable. How much will it move, only time will tell, and I have been wrong before too. I guess I do not get hung up is it the right decision, it is not about being wrong, or right on what block material, it is about supporting the only real Cleveland block out there. Being positive about something this site is based on. I hate to see you with such strong conviction about trackboss or aluminum blocks. I figured you would be excited about another Cleveland test bed. To me Its about something I have personally been involved with from the beginning. And I have waited for 13 years. I want a foundation, I do not have to worry about. Be it aluminum or cast. I wanted cgi, but I also do not want to wait any longer. Aluminum is ready, so am I. What i loose in HP is negligible, from what I have read about supra cast it's tensile strength of 52,000 psi, compared to iron at 40,000 psi, typical aluminum blocks are 356-T6, they are 42,000 psi. the sleeve in block is 100,000 psi. With tensile strength supra cast alloy is inherently stronger, but does not take into consideration of different metals together, with iron sleeves, and aluminium block, steel crank and block. This is where your concern is in regards to stability, I understand your opinion, and at 2000 hp, yes things are moving way more than only 800 hp or so. The blocks will be cast filled also, will not affect cooling.

Yes you are right, in a nutshell, don't matter what anything says, other than the track numbers. The good thing is we know what my combo makes now and does in quarter. When we run the TrackBoss weather dyno or track, we will be able to compare. I would love to have a different set of heads like higgins, or cook, or chi 400. But not in the cards right now. I am going to see what best decision is for cam, keep what I have, you, Bullet, Ed Curtis, straub, lots of people. Be fun to do a cam swap dyno session, then we will know.
Tim very nice videos!! I want to let you know from our testing on Trackboss 1 we seen growth of about .004. Very minimal as the supracast does not expand nearly as much. The new alloys seem to have better tensile strength and expansion properties. Fortunately the block your getting has even more updates than mine and yours is different from the recently poured blocks. Tim is constantly updating as we go. Trackboss 1 had some minor issues we/ I knew going in but is more or less a test mule for more Trackboss's to come. Its very cool to be part of this project and yes we are proud of Tims and our progress. I wanted to clarify this so as not to get any mis information out there. You will love you new Tb block im sure. Steve.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:42 am 
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Steve, what grew .004”?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:46 am 
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blykins wrote:
Steve, what grew .004”?

Well Brent the only obvious thing you can really go by is valve lash. Which we only seen by .004 we dont know if its 1/2 and 1/2 in head and block or maybe head only or a different split on both. There is no other way to measure that I know of. After completely tearing engine down after dyno runs no adverse wear or problems seen. Bearings all had the same crush, zero wear even with stock oil pump and 54psi hot pressure. Everything normal, cam bearings etc all good Exactly what we were hoping for!If we have had alot of growth we should've seen signs and of course this was only 20 some pulls on dyno and not a season of racing. That is coming up next season and we will put through paces. We did not see any indication of changes in block that looks any different than tearing a cast block as I've done numerous times after dynoing. That in itself tells me very little difference between the two. After a full season of bashing on track things maybe different. The good thing is it will not only be tb1 testing there will be others out likely more hp than tb1.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Cory told me that he didn't have a good feel on cold or hot lash either one because of the rocker arms that you were using. He said he wouldn't rely on that as a deciding factor.

That's good that you didn't see any issues, but unless you had insufficient bearing clearances or a spun cam bearing, you're not going to see any issues any way. Bearing crush doesn't change unless temperature is involved, so checking it after a tear down really won't reveal much other than structural strength issues.

The majority of issues that I have seen come up with aluminum blocks have revolved around porosity....water leaks....voids in material, etc.

If you were measuring oil pressure at the rear of the block, that's usually what I see too. I rarely use high volume/high pressure pumps.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Im not sure what Cory talking about as we used midlift 1.8 rocker no different setup than a crane gold.You set the same as any other alloy rocker.I did the setting of valves a number of times myself thats what I seen. My belief is if you have any significant growth you will see in two places for sure. Valve lash or mains. If you get alot of growth you will likely see signs in bearing area early.


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