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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Steve.k wrote:
I'll double check that when back together but we didn't see anything much different on it as a alloy headed iron motor which we attribute to supracast. I typically set my valve lash tight, meaning it takes good amount of effort to get guage in. I know a lot of guys don't like this way and neither way is wrong its just preference. I could be very well setting tight and do not see as much variance. But it works for me,and like you see little movement after running awhile. I'll make a point of checking again when we resume dynoing.


That's the way I do it too. I like a tight gauge.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Hey Guys, looks like I missed alot. Had to work weekend, so no time to post or review. I called Brent yesterday, and had a good conversation about the trackboss. I guess I inference Brent's post and attitude in the wrong way. Hard to tell the inflection and tone with keyboard replies. I guess the way that I look at it, is I have been waiting 13 years, and I build a bathtub, if my heads would bolt on. My point is that I have been enthusiastic about aftermarket Cleveland forever. I would think Brent is same way, but he is looking at things objectively.(also he has had bad experiences with aluminum blocks), understandable. I am looking at things theoretically. The reason being is there is only one TrackBoss out there so far. I can understand that the blocked has not proved itself like a Dart, or Motorsport....Yet. So without other blocks proving themselves, hard to wave the ford banner all over the place. Looking at it from Brent's perspective, just overview from our discussion. Me on the other hand, have gone through 13 ford banners, every year with no blocks, and no results. Every year, I pull the tattered banner down throw it out, and put up a new one. I probably look like the poster boy for trackboss. Mostly because I love Clevelands, and really have no interest in anything Windsor, or otherwise, except BBF. I must look like the fool, I am OK with that...I will be vindicated soon.

What I will say is this we all know that aluminum blocks expand and move around, the real argument or difference of opinion is how much. The how much can affect bearing crush, and most importantly, loss of ring seal. The main issue is that loss of ring seal looses HP, we all know that. The percent of loss, and subsequent loss of Hp is the issue that Steve k and Brent seem to be discussing. The truth is who cares? Really the only person that should care is the guy putting down the money, and the guy building the motor.
This is where it gets thick, Brent has had a lot of experience building and tearing down aluminum blocks, and goes by his experience. Steve K, goes by current build and dyno testing of TrackBoss 1. He apparently has seen less expansion, in the past and with the current trackboss build. The truth is, if you are going to build an aluminum motor, need to expect some decrease hp from ring seal. 40 HP, can't say, anything possible. But there are so many other factors that can cause a decrease or loss of HP from one motor to the next, or same from build to build with same block. There were issues with the first aluminum block, that should not be a surprise, as you are taking a paper design and turning it into metal. Metal that has to take the heat of combustion and distribute through out engine, now add water and pressure, any area of weakness will show up....That is a good thing, not a failed design. It is showing the way to make your product/block better. Have to take little set backs as learning and design improvement. Have to give Steve K the recognition of being first, putting his hard earned money and time into it. Thanks for paving the way. I am glad I have a revised block, after talking with Brent, because I was unfamiliar with the characteristics of porosity in aluminum block. T Meyer is also impregnating these new blocks,as a safeguard. T Meyer is also strengthening the block with discussion with cylinder liner length, and some strengthening of block in areas that were found not to his standards. With theses revisions, and the supra cast alloy, I hope expansion rates are more controlled, .ie less loss of ring seal. Temperature plays a big role, so not sure how it expresses itself in automotive aspect. With a race car aluminum block may his 160-180 degrees? If your running alcohol, even cooler. It is just something we don't know....Yet not enough blocks out there. I asked Brent why most automotive manufactures are using aluminum blocks without issues. Brent told me because of the money they spend in R&D. They have to down to a science no pun intended. Also these production cars not pushing too much HP. There are cars though that are pushing close to 4 figure hp ratings, no issues.
When we build my TrackBoss 427, it will be a good comparison to my old 408, as I had dynoed that and we can compare. Current 408 is making about 1.84 hp/ci. My old builder told me he would pick aluminum any time. He said you may loose 10-15hp, but probably no more. I am ok with that. He said weight distribution and decrease, can make a huge difference in times. Not just weight total, but distribution. your car will pick up just from that, with your chassis reaction, and putting the power to the ground. Like Brent said previously, he has been wrong before, as have I. We will probably be wrong again, that is life. These are shortcomings are what keeps us striving for perfection.I suspect expansion will be anywhere from .004-.014? I would bet it is going to be around .006-.010. Being positive as usual. I thank Brent for giving me more insight on aluminum blocks, and I thank Steve K, for undertaking the initial burden and expense as the ground breaker. I hope I do not have a lot of issues with my build, but know that there were be a few....enough for now.......Tim

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Hi Tim.

What I have learned is all the "Key Board internet hero's" All stayed on the other shit hole forum. It was so easy to fly off the handle with them. I feel everyone on Brent's forum is level headed and doesn't want to fight so that's how I approach every post. So unless someone just tells me to 'F" off , which has not happened yet on this forum, then I just treat it like cordial talk. And if anyone ever does have that much of a problem with me or any other member then that's what the messenger is for.

Now with that said, to your 408 to 427 test. I know its more time , money and effort but i can only see a direct comparison between the blocks if you use the same parts from your 408 and make the Track Boss a 408. Just pull all the guts and put them in the aluminium block. I believe your cam journals are different so spec the same cam as you have to fit the Track Boss. To me and probably most, that's a direct comparison. I also know we not made of money money money so you have to do what you can for budget reasons. It sure would be fun to just have the funds and test stuff all day. I truly would never be board. Either way, im eager to see your results and not only for the power comparisons of your combo but for the power limits and how the cooling is compared to iron. Cool stuff brother,
-Matt-


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:09 am 
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Thanks for Kudos Tim you wont be disappointed!! Matt :roll: ?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:57 am 
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nova467spanker wrote:
Hi Tim.

What I have learned is all the "Key Board internet hero's" All stayed on the other shit hole forum. It was so easy to fly off the handle with them. I feel everyone on Brent's forum is level headed and doesn't want to fight so that's how I approach every post. So unless someone just tells me to 'F" off , which has not happened yet on this forum, then I just treat it like cordial talk. And if anyone ever does have that much of a problem with me or any other member then that's what the messenger is for.

Now with that said, to your 408 to 427 test. I know its more time , money and effort but i can only see a direct comparison between the blocks if you use the same parts from your 408 and make the Track Boss a 408. Just pull all the guts and put them in the aluminium block. I believe your cam journals are different so spec the same cam as you have to fit the Track Boss. To me and probably most, that's a direct comparison. I also know we not made of money money money so you have to do what you can for budget reasons. It sure would be fun to just have the funds and test stuff all day. I truly would never be board. Either way, im eager to see your results and not only for the power comparisons of your combo but for the power limits and how the cooling is compared to iron. Cool stuff brother,
-Matt-


This forum was founded on objectivity, basically because the other forum didn't have any. Six years later, I can't remember any arguments, or even any spats that have been on here. I plan to keep it that way, and you are right, we are all just a bunch of buddies sitting around talking.

You are also correct in that a true apples/apples comparison would be to swap guts from one block to the other. That's the only way to test one variable. When you start introducing displacement changes, camshaft changes, compression ratio differences, etc., then seeing the results of a block change will be totally clouded up.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:19 am 
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Steve K.
Im not sure what is meant when you wrote this to me Matt :roll: ? If your wondering what i was talking about in my 1st paragraph, i was responding to when Tim wrote this:

"I guess I inference Brent's post and attitude in the wrong way. Hard to tell the inflection and tone with keyboard replies."


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:27 am 
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Matt im sorry if i read your quote wrong but i will say this. I go on both sites mostly the other. For what it's worth there are some very knowledgeable cleveland guys over there and always has been. As far as cleveland history probably the best site on the internet. Everyone has their ideas and thoughts and that doesn't make them any less knowledgable so you take what you can use and leave the rest. I only posted on this thread to give my knowledge of tb1 as I'm the only one here thats got it. I worked on the engine with Tim for a full week usually after 6 to 11 pm after Corey went home and Tim and i did most of the dyno work. That's when Tim had time to give his full attention to work as very busy all day. The above growth is what we seen, take it for what it is we have no reason to mislead anyone. I've set enough valves i know whats going on. No mysterious midlift setup or the like, just regular rockers like anyone elses. The tb1 in our eyes experienced 4-6 though growth in our eyes we made a point of feeling that out as we were playing with lash to get a feel for my camshaft. So we had a very good handle on it. Anyway Matt I apologize to you for being harsh.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:38 am 
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Steve, you're an investor as I understand it, so it's obvious that you have a bias and why you have a bias.

However, a sample of 1 doesn't make a foundation for any generalities to be made.

I'm trying to keep it objective and I'm willing to listen to anyone speak about the Trackboss block. However, my experience with aluminum blocks goes way back, and not to be harsh or crass, but I have more aluminum block experience than anyone posting on this forum. I have used Pond, Dart, Ford, GM, you name it, and no matter what the block is, they all show the same traits.

Now, I understand that the Trackboss block is made of a different grade alloy, but again, it's still aluminum, and there will be a difference between it and cast iron.

Again, not to be crass, but I'm not buying the .004" lash growth. Even a cast iron block with aluminum heads grows more than that. I'd have to set them myself to be sure.

Aluminum blocks have their place....mainly in *extreme* horsepower builds where if you window a block it's easily weldable/fixable, or in specific race venues where the focus is on weight loss rather than horsepower.

In the past, aluminum blocks have been popular because in dragboss' words, "It's something new and shiny". A lot of guys don't know that they squirm, make less horsepower, have a tendency for porosity issues, etc.. and to be honest, you can potentially buy almost 3 cast iron blocks for the price of an aluminum block.

Now for dragboss, he's been itching to get something done, so I can understand his reasoning in that he's just wanting to pull the trigger on something....no matter what material it is. I can understand that. I've had my name on the list for a Trackboss block since before Tim Meyer took over the project. I'm ready to see a cast iron one.

Now, with all this being said, let's not have our tempers flare and totally derail dragboss' thread on his disassembly video. I'm not gonna pull a Todd Fuchs and lock the thread because people disagree with me, but this forum has been cordial for the past 6 years. Let's keep it that way.....and since I pay the bills, I feel like I can make that warning.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:56 am 
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Brent your right i did invest, i do not have any bias, the block did not exhibit anymore growth than that. If we had to set the lash at .012 to get .020 I would post that! We didn't we set at .012 to get .016. We set gap numerous times to find what cam was doing. I do not care what you believe thats what happened and since I was the only one here that has access to block who would know? 4-6 max. These guys here say 6-8 on bbf. One guy said he had trouble the other three said very little with alloy. http://www.429-460.com/t27263-aluminum-vs-iron-block Im also invested in iron so it really doesn't matter to me. The info i put up is what we seen simple as that.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:22 am 
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Yeah, I don't think that's a really good thread to link to if you're trying to sell the product. :D

A few of the guys posting in that thread are industry professionals. rmcomprandy is Randy Malik, a pretty hard-core engine builder, who participates regularly in EMC. GT350 is Randy Gillis, who has had a lifetime's experience of designing/making pistons for JE and Racetec.

If you're willing to surf around and listen to guys' experiences with aluminum, then you'd be interested in hearing mine, right?

*I've had to return 2 aluminum FE blocks before they were even machined, because of porosity issues in a lifter bore, found by a pressure test.
*I had a sleeve drop on an aluminum block AFTER it was set in the oven with torque plates. That problem cost me about $1500 in disassembly time, machine work, reassembly, and more dyno time.
*I've noticed shadows in cylinders after a dyno session, even after having honed the block with torque plates, which shows that the cylinders were distorting. This was with an aluminum FE block.
*EVERY SINGLE all-aluminum engine that I've built, using blocks from Dart (which includes 9.500" deck 351W blocks, 8.200" 302 blocks, etc.), Pond, factory GM LS, etc., etc., lets the lash and preload grow .015" from cold to hot. I can pretty much bank on it every single time. On circle track engines, with tighter lashes, it will actually hold the valves open slightly when cold.

The fact of it is that OEM suppliers can spend millions of dollars in R&D and most have their own foundries. The FE and the Cleveland are not popular these days. They are popular between small groups like ourselves, but they are easily out-sold by SBC, SBF, etc. When you're trying to keep QC up on 50-100 block batches, the foundries are really hard to work with. Things happen, like when your engine caught fire on the dyno. That was a porosity issue and is common.

I'm not saying that things don't happen with aftermarket cast iron blocks, blems happen, but the chance of it happening with aluminum is far greater.

The only data that I will consider valid will be back-to-back comparisons with all other variables being the same. Guys that say, "Oh well, I think there's about 15 hp difference....", that doesn't mean anything to me. Show me a differential dyno sheet. Show me a differential time slip.

I'll follow all of this up and say I hope that I'm wrong about the aluminum Track Boss. If I am, then I've eaten crow before and I'm sure I will again. However, based on a decade's experience of messing with aluminum blocks, I have very strong gut feelings about them. I don't build all-aluminum engines any more and it would take a lot of data/proof in my face before I would risk losing money with them again.

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