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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:26 pm 
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Right now on my dyno I have a 408 Cleveland engine that I built for a customer with a Pantera. It has a set of the CHI 4V heads and a stock unmodified factory intake manifold. The other day I ran it with my 650 Holley and it made 484 horsepower at 5900 and 484lbs/ft torque at 4000rpm. This was through a full Pantera exhaust system with mufflers.

Now I have the customer's Holley Sniper EFI system hooked up and ready to run. This is a self learning system so my plan is to spend an hour or two running it around on the dyno until it says that it is fully programmed. At WOT will it run better, worse or about the same as my Holley?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:17 am 
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DaveMcLain wrote:
Right now on my dyno I have a 408 Cleveland engine that I built for a customer with a Pantera. It has a set of the CHI 4V heads and a stock unmodified factory intake manifold. The other day I ran it with my 650 Holley and it made 484 horsepower at 5900 and 484lbs/ft torque at 4000rpm. This was through a full Pantera exhaust system with mufflers.

Now I have the customer's Holley Sniper EFI system hooked up and ready to run. This is a self learning system so my plan is to spend an hour or two running it around on the dyno until it says that it is fully programmed. At WOT will it run better, worse or about the same as my Holley?


Guessing this question is a contest of sorts? Have to guess at the items you left out, like port mismatch, camshaft specs, compression, and dyno RPM limit but guessing is fun...I will start off by guessing it is a low to sub 10:1 compression on pump gas with a cam spec'd to 5500-6000 for good low -mid torque and drive-ability, but if the EFI is allowed to run to 10% fall off at high RPM it will give up some down low numbers and increase the overall peak numbers by 50-65HP and 15-20 TQ or more if the cam is bigger than I suspect it is.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:02 pm
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If the carb is adjusted correctly, it will likely outperform the holley sniper system.

But the kicker is that the fuel injection will likely have better all weather street manners then the carb, so the few #'s your lose by running it ends up being a wash to drivability.

This will be an interesting test for sure. Did Dan Jones participate in this build? Haven't heard much from him in a while.....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:44 am 
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Not knowing the cfm of the Holley system nor any data on intake restriction at WOT it's hard to guess. Best idea I have is if both systems have say less than 1.5" of vacuum at WOT, the EFI may be a tad better at fuel distribution.

Easier starting, cleaner running, a slightly sharper throttle response, as mentioned above are the biggest EFI benefits with all else being equal. 'Course this we all already knew, eh?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:00 am 
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Here's a little more information on the engine as it was run. Compression is 9.7:1 the cam is a Demos' Cams HR3-7-A1 hydraulic roller 220 degrees at .050 .565 lift ground on 107 with 6.3 degrees of overlap at .050.

The engine is a .030 Cleveland with a 4 inch stroke Scat forged crank, Scat I beam 6 inch rods and a KB IC881 Icon piston. We bored the block and I line honed the mains. It has the regular non racing King bearings. The oil pump is a stock out of the box Melling standard volume pump and the oil pan is from Armando and built for the Pantera application oil pressure is a steady 78-82psi on the pulls with 10W-30 regular no racing Valvoline oil. Valvetrain has the Demos' Cams hydraulic roller, Erson/Morel lifters, Erson springs, Yella Terra bolt down rocker arms.
The carburetor is a built carburetor from Competition Carburetion that was made from a 4777 body with a 750 base plate and a down leg stepped booster. This is very similar to the 740 that he does except it used a non HP body that I had from some junk carburetors that were given to me by a friend. I had that carburetor built to use on milder and or smaller builds. At 6000RPM on this engine it has 1.113 inches of Hg in the intake. The carburetor was not "tuned" in any way for this engine and is running a 70 and a 72 jet. I did have a 1/2 inch 4 hole spacer under the carburetor only because I thought it might allow my fuel log to clear the intake. It didn't.

The exhaust system is a set of headers made for a Pantera chassis with medium lenght 1 3/4 primary tubes into a collector with a 2.5 inch outlet. This is attached to a piece of 2.5 inch pipe with a few bends to allow it to fit in a Pantera. The mufflers are built very similarly to but larger and much better flowing than the stock ones that came on a Pantera.

I did about 45 minutes of break in running on the engine before doing some pulls to see what it likes for timing. 28 degrees was best running on 93 octane from Mobil.

My plan according to the instructions for the injector is to run the engine all around on the dyno for as long as it takes probably at least an hour. Fast, slow, heavy and light loads so that the computer can learn the tune. Then I'll do some full throttle pulls to see how it runs. I think that the flow rating of the injector is about 870 cfm at probably 1.5in/hg so it is about 150cfm larger than my Holley which had about an inch or more of depression from 5200rpm on up.

I think it'll be interesting. The Holley Sniper Stealth is a pretty nice looking kit. There are a few things that would be nicer. It has a external return style regulator and a throttle body that looks just like a 4779 or similar Holley carburetor with two inlet fittings. It would have been cool if one of those fittings was an inlet and the other an outlet with a built in regulator but in this application the packaging should work fine. All of the electronics are inside of the throttle body so it is totally self contained except for the little touch screen controller and the O2 sensor these both have pretty long wires. The rest of the wiring is nice but it is sort of a combination of wires that are either too long or too short. The temp sensor is screwed into the block where I tapped the heater hose outlet to 3/8 pipe. The wires are not long enough to allow it to screw into either the block temp sender port or the extra hole in the water pump on the Cleveland.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:14 am 
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Looking forward to the results of this.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:43 pm 
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Today I started the engine and ran it for about an hour. It started right up and ran rough but after it got warmed up and started doing some of its "learning" things began to sound better. I ran it all around but mostly at about 20-30 horsepower loading at 2500-3500 rpm where it sounded nice and smooth.

Hot idle is pretty good at 950 rpm but that's also where the system would have problems. After idling for a while it would suddenly have a fit, nearly die, chug-a-lug, rev up and then settle down again. It was almost as if the computer would reboot. I had other stuff to do so I shut it down and thought about it for a while. I'm thinking that it might be a noise problem caused by the MSD ignition. I rerouted the wires and I'm going to try it again in a few days.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:51 pm 
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Dave is the fuel system isolated, it kinda sounds like it may be percolating and running out of fuel or air trapped. You mislead me with the 650cfm I thought the 408" was under carb'd at 650 but its actually 740? ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:52 am 
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650 to 740 just isn't going to make a big difference on an engine like this one. The system has its own fuel supply that's totally independent of the one that I normally use on the dyno. The reason I don't think its a fuel problem is that when it starts messing up the screen alternates between no data and being blank before coming back on again. That's why I think its the computer crashing and then restarting. So far it has never done this when the engine is above idle where it sounds pretty good. I rerouted my plug wires and the wiring for the injector so hopefully that will cure the problem the next time I run the engine. The customer wants to come in from out of town to run the engine so I need to make sure that everything is ok before that can happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:35 am 
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Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA
Dave, Ron McCall called a couple of months back and mentioned one of his customers bought Hugh Casey's Pantera after he passed away. You did a 408C with my A3 heads and a hydraulic roller cam that made a bit over 600 HP with a 740 CFM Holley by Bobby Oliver. Ron mentioned how impressed he was with the engine and how well behaved it was. His customer then had a Holley throttle body EFI installed and Ron said he was surprised at how much it improved the driveability since it had good throttle response with the carb to begin with. He said it wasn't the base model Sniper kit but a step up from that. I think it may have been the Terminator Stealth version with the 4150 style throttle body as that allows a drop base air cleaner to be used. Ron said he wasn't sure if it gave up any peak power.

Dan Jones

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