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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:26 pm 
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bd8134 wrote:
bd8134 wrote:
The real problem with this stuff and probably a lesson well learned is that I don't know if it was something that I was doing wrong or if there is something wrong with the EFI unit itself. I have a tough time believing that it is defective simply because the computer does start up and work. With that said yesterday evening I had it stop communicating with the PC through the USB cable. I had it do a similar thing before and at that time I thought it was a problem on my PC but maybe not. The system would still start and run just as terrible as ever so I'll never know for sure.

There would be a huge outcry if this sort of issue was happening with a mainstream OEM config. The same reliability and dependability should be built in to any product a third party markets or it should not be sold. Maybe the unit is picking up noise or interference, but it should not be as fussy as that, better filtering should be built in if that is the issue. They should be pretty much plug and play and have some sort of diagnostics / logging available to trace issues.
None of these systems are intended to be complicated and should provide at least better drive-ability.
I am hoping I have better luck with my Holley Terminator, I bought the one with transmission control, https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/terminator_efi/terminator_stealth/terminator_stealth_transmission_control_kits/parts/550-443
This uses the same ecu as the Holley Dominator, different sticker, ~$200 extra. I am not using the transmission control, it has additional inputs like a 2nd O2, more inputs and outputs terminals for speed inputs, traction control, knock sensors, individual ignition coils, etc.
The Dominator software can be loaded on any of the Terminator ecu's but I like to "tinker" which is why I went with the bigger unit.
These ecu's do not like magnetic pickups used in MSD billet distributors, Sniper I believe does not have a good time with them either.
Not sure what distributor or wiring system you are using Dave. https://www.efisystempro.com/efi-pro-hangout/demystifying-holley-terminator-sniper-ignition-wiring
I had to purchase a Holley Dual Sync distributor but I have also played with setting up a crank sensor, these are hall effect.
I had no problem though with an MSD pro billet dizzy with the MSD Atomic efi.


This does have an MSD Pro billet distributor. I tried it with the Sniper only controlling the fuel and I tried it with the Sniper controlling the timing. Both ways it ran about equally terrible but I think it seemed to be able to stay idling better when it controlled the timing picking up from the mag pickup and then signalling my dyno mounted MSD 6AL box.

Who knows. Today I had the engine running one more time using my carburetor so I could check it out and set the timing. It ran great. As ubiquitous as magnetic pickup distributors are doesn't it seem weird that Holley would design a unit like this and have it not work using a mag trigger distributor? GM, Ford, Chrysler, MSD you name it all work about the same.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:25 pm
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Location: Stranded in Iowa - Better get the Breakdown squad out
DaveMcLain wrote:
bd8134 wrote:
Several years ago I had a terrible experience with a system from Electromotive. I spent about 3x as much time and used about 5x as much gas trying to get that crap to run before giving up and installing a carburetor. I even had an expert on that system spend an entire day here trying to get it to work and it didn't.


Guess I'll be forever associated with that experience in you memory Dave. Too bad, you did a nice build and that engine is a beast.

Best,
Kelly


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:35 pm 
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KCoffield wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:
bd8134 wrote:
Several years ago I had a terrible experience with a system from Electromotive. I spent about 3x as much time and used about 5x as much gas trying to get that crap to run before giving up and installing a carburetor. I even had an expert on that system spend an entire day here trying to get it to work and it didn't.


Guess I'll be forever associated with that experience in you memory Dave. Too bad, you did a nice build and that engine is a beast.

Best,
Kelly


Ha! I tried so hard to make that Electromotive stuff run on your engine too. However my memories of the experience overall are very positive because you were a great customer and I really enjoyed that engine build.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:13 am 
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Location: Stranded in Iowa - Better get the Breakdown squad out
DaveMcLain wrote:
........However my memories of the experience overall are very positive because you were a great customer and I really enjoyed that engine build.


Good to hear that Dave. Despite all the high zoot stuff on the original induction system, it was an exercise in (my) relearning just how simple and efficient a good carb can be, and when you find a combination of parts so well suited for one another, you should embrace it.

The flip side is all the sensing and gadgets required to synthesize what a carb naturally does with EFI. If you have the resources of an auto manufacturer.....ok. Building one custom engine.....maybe not so much.

Take care,
Kelly


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:33 pm 
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I think you're totally correct. I can't even imagine how many smart people companies like GM, Ford etc must have working on that stuff every day. Maybe as computers become more powerful aftermarket EFI will get better too. How well could something like a Raspberry Pi run an EFI system? It seems like it could do pretty well to me.

One of my big fears is having some system that could quit somewhere out of town where getting replacement parts might take a while.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:23 am
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Location: Texas
I see both your points on the carb vs EFI. Thing is, just like everything else in the world, you have to pay to play. When you buy junk, you get junk. Buy good, get good. Each manufacture has it top level stuff and then there is the stuff I can afford. The Sniper might be Holleys hit 'n miss junk where as the Dominator is well proven as well as the Terminator series. Haltech is top shelf too. The thing that irritates me about systems like the Terminator is why limit it too 600hp? Trust me, im definably not Mr. Computer nerd but you cant beat EFI when it comes to engine start up, fuel management, efficiency and tenability which in turn helps the life of the engine. By the way, that 1000cfm throttle body I posted the link to is the one NASCAR runs. RASCAR are making more/efficient power with the EFI and are using less fuel doing it.

Oh well, im not DADDY MONEY BAGS so I will have to run a carb for a while longer but its cool knowing I can go to efi with my Trick Flow intake. Just have to cut the injector holes or just buy the one offered fro T/F. Then all I have to do is run a 351W fuel rail and computer and bamm EFI for the Cleveland. And of coarse a T-Body and new fuel system lol...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:50 pm 
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The one advantage the OEM's have is they design a system for a specific application and can control its complete environment. The 3rd party's have to cater to multiple scenarios. Not working with magnetic pickups is sad though, using a Raspberry Pi would scare the hell out of me for any critical operation.
nova467spanker,it is possible to increase the fuel pressure if your engine produces more than 600hp if using a Terminator, it may shorten the injectors life but most have a safe window, need to check injector on time is not over 90% and fuel ratio is still correct. I think I ran my Atomic at 55psi. Larger injectors are available also from Holley but you need the throttle body wiring that goes with them.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/terminator_efi/terminator_service_parts/parts/522-205
For about the price of a Dominator ECU you could buy a base Terminator and then if you wanted to go to a different throttle body, separate injectors, turbo's, nitrous, etc at a later point, you just load those parameters into the Terminator ecu. The base unit then becomes the HP unit, the Terminator with transmission control becomes the Dominator. They all run the same software, the base has fewer connections and no drive by wire for example but in effect the same.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:04 am 
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Location: Texas
bd8134
So i just read your reply. So will this Terminator kit do the same as you said "load those parameters into the Terminator ecu. The base unit then becomes the HP unit" ?

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... s/550-441K

This was what I was talking about only being able to support 250-600hp.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:54 pm
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Hey, I love EFI too but to add same to my almost 500HP 351W in a 1970 Mustang requires way too many mods in my book. Heck, aside from the fuel tank and fuel line mods, one needs a modern alternator, bungs in the headers for EGT sensors, lots of underhood wiring (no electrician here), the EFI kit installed, an expert to install all that wiring and getting the car's base data set up and fired up. Then the learning curve for the computer. Jeesh, I'm tired just typing all this out.

Ah, and the real kicker is I've gained zero (yes, 0) horsepower and torque over my well setup (by me) 750 DP'er Holley. Sure, we all know the EFI benefits from otu daily drivers, as noted above. But, some things IMO are best left as is for weekend warriors and our never driven in the salty winter '60's-70's muscle cars. That's my line and I'm sticking to it.

They'll pry my Holley carb out of my cold d.... well .... you get it!

Hah!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:28 pm 
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nova467spanker wrote:
bd8134
So i just read your reply. So will this Terminator kit do the same as you said "load those parameters into the Terminator ecu. The base unit then becomes the HP unit" ?

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... s/550-441K

This was what I was talking about only being able to support 250-600hp.


You just set an option in the software, which has be done on a Windows pc, to tell it that it has a Terminator throttle body.
There is no separate software available for the Terminator. The HP, Terminator and Dominator all use the same software and use the same wiring pin connections though different wiring is required for each application. The Dominator has more sockets / sockets.
https://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?13368-Terminator-TBI-with-a-Holley-HP-ECU
https://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_hpdomecuuseanddiff.pdf

The Terminator X is a different beast.
https://www.holley.com/support/resources/#Fuel_Injection

If you want to see more details, check out this pdf..
https://documents.holley.com/techlibrary199r10555rev17.pdf
Page 4 shows a picture of the base Terminator or HP ecu.
Page 5 shows a picture of Terminator with transmission control or Dominator ecu.
Pages 39 & 40 are the cables that come with the base Terminator.
You get more cables with the Terminator with transmission control.

Yes out of the box you are limited to 250-600hp but there are ways round it as I said.
How much hp does your engine produce?

Sorry Dave for going off subject. ;)


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